CSM9: Week Two

And onward we march. CSM8’s term is officially over; that council has been dissolved permanently, their last remnants swept away forever. CSM9 have tags and forum access, granting direct controls over their territories. How and if they keep their local constituents in line, however, is up to them.


Anyway, that second “thing” from last week’s post is this week’s first thing – the announcement that the CCP will be taking advantage of their new expansion model (sidenote: If you’re not familiar with that new model, read that post) to allow them to delay the industry changes and push them back to the following release, July 22nd. Plenty of good feedback during and immediately after Fanfest prompted the decision; they want to ensure the revamp is as perfect as they can get it, and only having to delay six weeks instead of six months allows them to do that. Obviously everyone hopes CCP doesn’t make a habit of it, but having the option for a small delay when necessary to ensure a patch comes off the best way possible is a big, big deal.

The industry features were the largest part of Kronos and their delay certainly guts out the largest set of features for the patch. I’m still not entirely sure that there’s a comprehensive list of what was delayed, but in a nutshell, it’s everything from the series of six industry devblogs. Still, CCP has pivoted, and the theme of Kronos will be more pirate & lowsec oriented now, with a full feature list here. Well, mostly full. There may be still a few surprises in store ;)

Time from an interlude from patch discussion. CCP Dolan‘s departure is public knowledge if not official these days. When CSM8 was told he was leaving, to be replaced by CCP Leeloo, the news was met with a bit of trepidation. While many in the community are not fans of Dolan, to the CSM he was a known quantity who had (on the whole) done a pretty decent job. As a reuslt, it makes me extremely happy to say that CCP Leeloo has been proving herself right out of the gate. CSM9 has meetings scheduled with what I’m reasonably certain is every single development team in CCP over the next week and a half or so, a mini-summit of “get to know you’s”. That ought to save us a bit of time at the Summits, as first order of business with every new team has always been “who are you, what do you do.” So, kudos to CCP Leeloo. I think I speak for all five incumbents when I say you’ve erased any uncertainty we might have had.

To echo, just a touch, something Sugar Kyle talked about over in her blog, there have definitely been some heated arguments over new features. That shouldn’t really be any surprise, and hell, it’s actually a good thing. Going against a common opinion, I’ve argued more than a few times lately that any given CSM member isn’t there to represent the game as a whole. How can they? No one knows everything. We all work from our respective experiences with our preferred playstyle or styles, and do our best to convince everyone else our viewpoint is correct. Sometimes that’s not necessary because we actually agree despite diverging experiences, sometimes it’s not necessary because even though we don’t agree, it doesn’t actually matter because the change has little to no actual impact. But sometimes it does matter, and that’s where you want someone who can present their arguments well. And at this point I think I’ll cut this line of reasoning short before it turns into a post about what to look for in a CSM candidate. Back to this week!

The Mordu’s Legion faction ships everyone already knows about from Fanfest, of course, but CCP Rise posted their stats on Monday. I already wrote about those, so I won’t belabor them too much other than to point out that they’re one of many Lowsec focused elements for Kronos. The main source of supply (hopefully!) will be belt rats found in Lowsec belts. More people in lowsec hunting valuables and getting in fights? One can only hope. Not much argument internally about these – we’re all as excited to get our hands on them as most everyone else is.
Continuing attention to lowsec, we’ve got more K-K wormholes. Low to highsec movement isn’t changed here, but low to null is increased a lot and low to low, a hell of a lot. Again, no arguments amongst ourselves here, and by this point I’m considering putting one of my spare PvP pilots out in lowsec just to take part in all the new action!Tooltips! Okay, general player reaction doesn’t actually warrant the “!” just yet, I think. There’s been a lot of backlash over them, and some of it is even warranted. CCP is working on it. I’m pretty positive on them overall, though, so if you’ve got suggestions to tweak and adjust them I’m all ears; if you want the CSM to push for their removal, look elsewhere.

Blockade Runners got their revamp posted, along with Deep Space Transports. Not a whole lot of argument over the former – they got exactly what they needed, with the nice bonus of a fat boost to warp speed on top. DSTs on the other hand, well… I’m less than impressed by them. I think their escape mechanics are a bit of a trap, which makes their tanking abilities overrated. Most of the rest of the CSM disagrees, though. I had a lively debate about their merits with Sugar Kyle, but at the end of the day this is one of those areas mentioned earlier where disagreeing doesn’t really matter. On the other hand, their weapon slots might make them fun to use as Q-Ships.

In conjunction with Deep Space Transports are Medium Micro Jump Drives, which have a lot of PvPers throwing a fit. You know what? Suck it up and adapt. Might help your case to stop being so hyperbolic in feedback, and trashing on the devs responsible isn’t really going to convince them either.

Last up is Freighters and Jump Freighters. CCP Fozzie nerfed several stats as well as introducing rigs, and so the net effect is that pilots can choose to do better than current in one area, at the cost of others. As most people no doubt expected to be able to buff all of their stats a little bit or one stat a lot with rigs, this is quite a surprise and most people aren’t happy. For my part, I like there being elements of choice involved in using the freighter, which in turn means that I like the fact that it’s not “okay your freighters are as-is except with rigs.” Where’s the choice there?

What I’m a great deal less certain about, having thought about it, is just how absolute it is. You can’t unfit rigs, so if you want to suit your ship to your task, you eat the cost of destroying them or maintain extra ships. While any other ship has that problem as well, any other ship also has fitting slots and so most of the time can perform with most of their efficiency, even with the wrong rigs. My other concern, which I’m less sure of is how all or nothing the corresponding nerfs make it. You can get to about 105% in one aspect and suffer greatly in all others, or mix and match and just kind of suck at everything due to the nerfs. At least, I think so – I desperately need to sit down and crunch out the numbers, but I do have an idea rolling around based on this concept. We’ll see where it goes.

That just about wraps it up for this week. Kronos is on SiSi and slated to launch June 3rd, so we’re getting close. That doesn’t mean, however, that all the changes are out – CCP still has a few things in store. Stay tuned!

17 thoughts on “CSM9: Week Two

  1. Totally agree with your preliminary views on freighters. Nobody should expect to get rigs without some changes to the base stats. That being said, rigs are permanent and only give a hint of flexibility. I really wish CCP would take a more holistic approach to the class the way they have done through their other rebalancing efforts, tiercide, etc. It’s the only ship of consequence in the game that is so fundamentally different from the rest. This change seems somewhat half baked and deserves a more thoughtful approach

    Thanks for the update and thoughts.


  2. Regarding Freighters.

    I was fully expecting Freighters to get a rebalance to take into account rigs. I was expecting them to basically end up being about equal to now when rigs were taken into account, but with the extra flexibility. So I sacrifice some Cargo for extra Armor. Or I get extra agility but lose armor etc.

    I was disappointed to see that the net effect is a nerf overall to freighters. I can spend hundreds of millions of isk to get 5% more cargo than now but also lose a load of armor and agility. The benefits are defiantly outweighed by the costs and drawbacks so overall its a nerf, which is a shame


    • It’s +6.6% cargo with three Tech I rigs that, when and if they return to the prices they were at before fanfest, cost about 35m each. In exchange for this you lose 7.35% EHP (assuming a Charon here). Agility isn’t actually affected – the increase in mass to Freighters, at least, was accidental.

      So knowing that, is your opinion changed?


  3. Hopefully you can send a few words to CCP about the freighter changes, because while choice is good, raising the barrier of entry for freighters will only make it harder for noobs to join the field, which hardly matches up with CCP’s stated goals of boosting null industry.


  4. I am continuously amused by the reluctance to introduce new hauler-type ships, while new PvP ships get introduced left and right (ok, almost).

    In my mind, there is a big gap in the hauler line-up between Industrials and the capitals (Orca, freighters) – meaning that there is space for a “bulk hauler” ship class with maybe 200k m3 cargo, 50k EHP base, 100M build cost, with rig and module slots, and T1 sub-cap skill requirements. It would come in handy for everyone who needs to move larger volumes of goods, but who can’t (or doesn’t want to) afford a freighter.

    Even MiniLuv should be happy, as such bulk haulers would require fewer ships to gank than a freighter, while possibly carrying almost as many valuable goods.


  5. In regards to Freighters and Jump Freighters. It seems like an overall nerf, and for people who don’t want to buy and own 2-4 of them the only having rigs is a major drawback.

    I would be much more interested in eventually owning a freighter if they held off on these changes and did a complete rebalance with the goal of adding modules. I think with a combination of rigs and modules and maybe changing their hitpoints from mostly hull for everyone to racial flavors, there would be a lot less screaming and a lot more actual flexability in how to fit and fly them.

    Personally I’d like a couple high slots and a one turret….

    For DST, I think they need to be closer to 100,000 m3 total cargo. Idealy able to move one Fitted BS. Which would make them a good stepping stone in the industrial hauling line.

    Or they need, 3 high slots, 2 gunmounts, and some drones. To be much better Q-ships and so Marlona can make another good video. And as soon as I get somewhere I can post on Eve-O I will do that to. Dumb work weekend.


    • Since looking up some stats, I guess 100,000 is no where near enough for a BS…

      So in that case I would amend it to like 150,000m3 so they could at least move any fitted cruiser.


      • Only problem is, unless I’m mistaken, you can’t put a fitted ship into a fleet hangar. Ship Maintenance Bay, yes, fleet hangar, no.


  6. Thanks very much for crunching the numbers on the changes to freighters and jump freighters in Fozzie’s feedback thread, Mynna. I think your three low slot counter-proposal is well thought out. I’m fully expecting (and agree with) having to sacrifice cargo for EHP, or EHP for cargo, or both for align or warp speed improvements, but the key point that’s bothered me is the permanence of rigs.

    Your counter-propossal allows for easy customisation to match the cargo/trip being planned by the freighter pilot, while still properly penalising any freighter (and I presume JF, when you run those numbers as well) that tries to max out their stats in any one area.

    Thanks very much for your work on this.


  7. I am concerned about the new DST from the perspective of C1 wspace inhabitants. Currently, the only way to get a battleship or marauder into C1 is to build it in there. And if you do, it is locked in. So it is not economical to do it just to sack someone’s tower. As a result, C1 wspace towers are much more defensible than those in higher wspace. In particular, the ECM-based dickstar (which is more or less obsolete in midlevel wspace since the advent of bastion modules) is still quite powerful in C1.

    The new DST will allow packaged battleships and marauders to be carried into C1s and assembled at a staging POS. Currently, you cannot repackage a ship in wspace. So most would-be aggressors will still be deterred economically. But, you should be able to repackage at a POS, and it does not seem unreasonably hard to fix; CCP might even do so. As such, CSM and CCP should be aware of the interaction of large cargo capacity and C1.


    • If I’m understanding you right you’re concerned battleships would be too good in c1 wormholes. I could turn this around and ask why you shouldn’t be able to get them in, or for another angle why the resident (for whom building shouldn’t be that difficult) ought to have such a formidable edge between having BS (vs not) *and* having such a hard to remove POS.


      • Yes, battleships and especially marauders are “good” in C1. In fact they are good anywhere if for whatever reason you cannot have capital ships. Bastion mode in particular allows even a fairly small marauder band to defeat any tower.

        As for the why you ask about, I think it’s important to realize that from time immemorial, battleships have not been allowed into C1 (except by building them there system-locked), and that presumably many people rely on that. CCP intentionally designed C1s that way, presumably with the idea of keeping out battleships. I know that when I first moved into wspace, I did choose C1 in part because it is safer. I was quite concerned at the time about being ejected, and the fact that attackers could use only battlecruisers against my dickstar made the risk seem lower.

        So that’s the reason: that C1 space exists, with its defensive advantage and thus lower chance of being burned out, invites people into wspace that otherwise might be too scared. Once they get in and live the life, some of them move up. (I moved up to C4/C3, and then C4/C4.)


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